Metal is important to people, it gives them a sense of belonging, it's part of their identity.
Sam Dunn: Hello, Nando.
W (Nando Machado): Hello, Sam.
SD: How are you?
W (NM): Well, man, it's good to talk to you. It's been a long time.
SD: Sorry to keep you waiting, I just had to step away for a second, but I'm glad you stayed on the line.
W (NM): That's great, man. First of all, congratulations on the baby.
SD: Thank you.
W (NM): Excellent, excellent. I'm here with the other presenter, Daniel.
W (Daniel Dystyler): Hi Sam, how are you?
SD: Great, are you alright?
W (DD): Yes, this is Daniel. First, I'd like to thank you, because I've spent a considerable part of my life explaining, arguing, discussing, and trying to convince people why Heavy Metal is so special, and not something directly linked to criminals or bad people, or that it's not an inferior type of music. And your films, I think they're the only structured and consistent effort so far to explain the headbanger movement in a way that doesn't make Heavy Metal fans look like idiots. So, thank you very much for that and welcome to the Wikimetal program.
SD: Thank you very much, it's our pleasure. I'm glad we were able to do something for Metal and thank you for having me.
W (NM): Sam, how did you start working with Scot and how difficult was it to convince him to make documentaries about Heavy Metal, since we know he's not a Metal fan like you?
SD: Well, Scot had been working in film long before me, and he worked as a music supervisor and was quite involved in film and TV. And I was doing my master's degree in anthropology and originally just wanted to write a book about the history of Heavy Metal, because I really felt at the time – this was in '99, 2000 – that it hadn't been done before. And Scot said, "How about we make a documentary?" And we looked and found that there weren't any serious, in-depth documentaries about Metal. And we thought it was a great opportunity to do something not only for Metal fans, but also for non-fans, to give a different perspective on the people who listen to the music and the people who create it.
W (DD): You've had the opportunity to speak with so many heroes like Tony Iommi, Bruce Dickinson, Ronnie James Dio, etc. As a Metal fan yourself, can you highlight a special moment that you'll remember forever?
SD: Well, I was very lucky. I had the opportunity to meet several heroes I grew up listening to. Everyone from Dickinson of Iron Maiden to Tony Iommi, and so on. And I think now, doing this new show “Metal Evolution,” which has eleven one-hour episodes, I wondered if I would have the same feeling of meeting someone so special. But I must say that having the opportunity to interview Bill Ward and Geezer Butler of Black Sabbath was very special. Bill Ward especially gave us a lot of his time and many of his thoughts for the series, and I think much of what he says about Metal, the types of music he grew up listening to – which was Jazz, old Rock and Roll, and Blues – will really expand people's ideas about the origin of Metal.
W (DD): I was thinking that in the "Metal Evolution" series, you arrive at his house and it's a really cool place, right?
SD: Well, actually, I think you're thinking about the first film, "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," when I interviewed Tony Iommi in England. And a lot of people think that was his house, but actually his house was being renovated; that was a nearby hotel. But hey, if it looks like I'm visiting Tony Iommi's house, that's perfectly fine.
I didn't think music could sound like that, I didn't think sounds like that could exist, until I heard Metallica, who grabbed me forever.”
W (NM): Sam, how did you first come into contact with the world of Metal? And if you could choose one song to represent those early years, what would it be?
SD: I think for a lot of people Black Sabbath is the starting point for Heavy Metal. There's a good argument that the first song on Black Sabbath's first album, the song "Black Sabbath," is really the first Heavy Metal song. It had a darker, heavier sound than anything before; people were playing with distortion and songs with "power chords," that sort of thing, but I think what Sabbath did… they brought it all together in one package. There was the heaviness of the music, the darkness of the lyrics, the album artwork, and they were the first band to really create this whole package, which sounded like something very new. As we saw in the first episode of “Metal Evolution”, Bill and Geezer say, “Well, this song came from a classic composition by Gustav Holst,” called “The Planets Suite.” It’s a rather obscure classic composition, and they loved the sound of it and started playing around with it on guitars and bass, and Tony found a slightly different way to play it, and it ended up being the memorable first riff on Sabbath’s first album.
W (NM): And do you remember who first introduced you to Heavy Metal? Maybe a neighbor or an older brother, something like that. And what was the first Metal song you heard, do you remember?
SD: Well, I was a teenager in the '80s, so it was a time when Glam Metal was quite popular and was on music channels on TV. I was exposed to bands like Twisted Sister, Ratt, Mötley Crüe, and Van Halen when I was 9 years old. But I think the first time I really heard something that made me feel different, that had that heavy, rebellious feeling, was when I had an older friend. He was a guitarist and played Metallica's "Ride the Lightning," and I remember hearing the song "Fight Fire With Fire," and comparing it to Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher," it was like someone had peeled back a whole layer of what Metal could be, and I remember being blown away by that sound. I didn't think music could sound like that, I didn't think there could be sounds like that, until I heard that Metallica album, and then, of course, it grabbed me forever.
W (NM): So, which song from this album would you like to hear on our show now? We can play it.
SD: Well, because we haven't heard "Fight Fire With Fire," it's definitely a Thrash anthem, and Metallica, say what you will about them, they've had their ups and downs, and I haven't always agreed with what they've done with their career, but we have to remember that this is the band that undoubtedly started Thrash Metal, and this was and still is my favorite genre of Metal. So, yes, "Fight Fire With Fire."
W (DD): Sam, we've interviewed a lot of great artists so far, like Ian Gillan, Zakk Wylde, Phil Anselmo, Glenn Tipton, and every time I'm about to start an interview I think, "I think this is going to be my Mayhem moment." That's because I remember the interview you did with Mayhem for your first film. Can you share a little about that experience?
SD: Well, we went to Wacken in 2004 to interview several bands, Ronnie James Dio, and some other artists, and one of them was Mayhem. We wanted to do a chapter on Black Metal in the film, and I was interested in talking to them about the history of Norwegian Black Metal; where it came from, its influences, and the controversies surrounding the style. Needless to say, the interview went completely off the rails. I think they weren't taking the interview seriously; I think they thought we were just doing a school project, something low-budget. But the funny thing is that originally we weren't going to put it in the film because we thought it was a lost cause, but Scot said, "Maybe we should take another look at that Mayhem interview; I remember it being funny." And we ended up putting it in the film because, at the end of the day, we want to create films not only to give a lot of information and knowledge about Metal but also for entertainment. And humor is important when you're making movies, so this ended up being a funny moment and became legendary – maybe that's a lot – but a notorious moment in the film that everyone seems to love.
'Black Sabbath' is truly the first heavy metal song. It had a darker and heavier sound than anything that came before.
W (NM): After your first films, several films about Metal were made, like the one about Lemmy, there's a good one called "Heavy Metal in Baghdad," the one about Anvil was a success, Overkill's Rat Skates is making some too, "The History of Thrash Metal," and so many others. What are your favorites, besides your own?
SD: I'm a big fan of the Anvil movie because I think it's a great story and I know everything they went through. It's not always a happy story, but I really admire the band for making this film. I think the filmmaker did a great job and it's a very moving story. I think this is one of the best metal films of all time.
W (DD): E is Canadian.
SD: Yes, of course, he's Canadian, I'm a little biased in that respect.
W (DD): Let me return to a topic we touched on, which I'd like you to comment on a bit more. One of the reasons why everyone condemns and treats Heavy Metal so badly is the fact that the bands and the music touch on topics that encompass dark and shadowy aspects of human existence. And being Metal fans, we know there's nothing wrong with liking Iron Maiden's "The Number of the Beast" or Venom and Slayer, or even more extreme bands. How do you feel about the Black Metal scene in Norway, which has gone too far, and the consequences this brings to the Heavy Metal community?
SD: Well, as I said in “Headbanger’s Journey,” I’m a big fan of many Norwegian bands, especially a band like “Enslaved,” which really matured from a straightforward Norwegian Black Metal band into a great extreme Prog Metal band. But when it came to what happened with the church fire and the murder and everything else, I think for many, not just me, it really crossed the line. It wasn’t about the music anymore, and Metal is important to people, it gives them a place to belong, it’s part of their identity, it’s really part of who we are as people. But I don’t think that necessarily means it needs to influence our actions in the political and religious sphere. From a historical point of view, I can understand what happened in Norway, because Norway was a pagan country for a long time, and Christianity arrived late in the country. Traditional ways of life in Norway were forcibly removed when Christianity arrived around 1080. So I can understand that people felt this was a great injustice to their culture and their country, but that doesn't mean you should go around killing people and burning what are, in my eyes, magnificent examples of architecture and history. I think I felt that way, I felt that – although it's not up to me, since I'm not Norwegian and that's not my culture, but from my point of view – this went too far.
W (NM): We have a traditional question, one that we ask everyone we interview…imagine you're driving or at home, with your iPod on shuffle, and a song comes on that you can't control yourself from and you start headbanging wherever you are. What song would that be for us to play on the show right now?
SD: There are many, but I think "Raining Blood" by Slayer, that song... it doesn't get any better than this.
W (NM): You're right. The whole album, but this particular song is really good. Let's listen to "Raining Blood" by Slayer.
W (DD): Sam, the series “Metal Evolution” hasn’t aired in Brazil yet, but I had the opportunity to watch two episodes and I’m very excited to watch the whole series, because you captured great historical moments of the Headbanger community, like the one at the end of episode 3 where Rob Halford looks at the camera and says “Yes, we are proud to be Heavy Metal!” and makes the horns gesture with his hands. Can you share with our listeners the moments you felt proud to have captured on camera?
SD: I think this moment is really important, and I'm glad you brought it up because I think what we really see in the series is that "Heavy Metal" wasn't a popular term when people started using it in the late '60s and early '70s. Even though big bands like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and Led Zeppelin created the sound that became identified as Metal, they didn't see themselves as Heavy Metal; it was still an external concept. They saw themselves as Hard Rock bands, and I think what's important is that when Judas Priest started gaining popularity in the late '70s and early '80s, they were the first band, and Rob Halford was the first musician, to stand up and say, "We are Metal." That gave this type of music a new direction, because it went from something people avoided and were even ashamed of, to something that is an identity and a badge of honor. And I think if Metal, as we've always discussed, is a lifestyle and a culture, then that was the moment it began, when Halford stood up and said, "We are Metal."
You can't imagine bands like Metallica or Iron Maiden or a thousand others without that sound that Led Zeppelin was the first to create.”
W (NM): So, taking advantage of what you just said... in the "Metal Evolution" series there's a part where you're in England, in Robert Plant's agent's office, and you mention that you're so close and yet so far from the legends of Led Zeppelin. And then you say directly to the camera that Robert Plant and Jimmy Page don't want to be associated with Heavy Metal, despite being very influential. What do you think about that?
SD: Well, I really wanted to do an interview with Page and Plant for the series, and I also spoke with John Paul Jones, but neither of them wanted to get involved. Of course, from our perspective as filmmakers, it's disappointing because Led Zeppelin is a band that influenced many generations of Rock and Metal. And yet, this term "Heavy Metal" still carries a very strong stigma; it's quite limiting, as if it doesn't capture the essence of Led Zeppelin. And I understand, that's totally fair and makes a lot of sense, however I just hoped to have the opportunity to talk to them and speculate on why so many people were influenced by what they did and hear from them what they did exactly with the music at the time that was so innovative. This is what the program talks about, it talks about the evolution of sound, the evolution of music, and Led Zeppelin is a critical example, because Plant has that powerful, wide-ranging voice, and Page, of course, had that distorted guitar tone. And if you think of a song like "Communication Breakdown," from Led Zeppelin's first album, it's really the first time we heard that fast, repetitive guitar riff. And you can't imagine bands like Metallica or Iron Maiden or a thousand others without that sound that Led Zeppelin was the first to create.
W (DD): Changing the subject a bit, we had a situation here in Brazil two weeks ago, where the lead vocalist of a band called Almah, who is the same as the band Angra, you probably know them, posted a video in which he says that Metal fans in Brazil don't support local bands enough, they only go to shows of international bands, etc., and the way he said it was quite aggressive.
W (NM): It was right after a show where there were very few people.
W (DD): There were only a hundred people. So, do you think this is something that happens everywhere, this lack of support for local bands, or is it something specific to Brazil? How do you see it?
SD: I think that happens everywhere. It's a strange human phenomenon where we're always more fascinated by things that come from other places, and Canada is no exception. We have fantastic metal bands like Voivod and Strapping Young Lad, and even death metal bands like Gorguts and Annihilator. All these bands are really great bands, but Canadians don't see their significance until we travel the world and say, "I'm from Canada," and they say, "Yes, we love Voivod, we love Sacrifice, we love all those bands." So I think it's quite a human thing, and I understand that musicians from Brazil get frustrated because I think it's something people experience everywhere. I remember when I went to Norway to film "Headbanger's Journey" and I was talking to people in Oslo. At the time I was very excited about the new Dimmu Borgir album, and a guy turned to me and said, "I don't understand, one of those guys used to deliver my milk." So I think it's quite human to be fascinated by what comes from abroad, but I totally understand the frustration of the guys in Brazil.
W (NM): As a bassist, have you ever felt frustrated by not being able to make a living from music and play in a band? Especially after spending so much time with all those legends. Can we expect something from musician Sam Dunn in the future?
SD: There was a brief moment when I was interested in pursuing music professionally, but I think at the end of the day I realized, first of all, how difficult it is and maybe I doubted my talent too much. I always wanted to be able to play, but not necessarily pursue it as a career. And now, making films and television programs about Metal and Rock is working out. I think I can be much more effective this way than on stage.
Rob Halford was the first musician to stand up and say, “We are Metal.” That gave this type of music a new direction.
W (DD): Now it's my turn to request a song. There's quite a bit of prejudice from older fans against new bands. Many Metal fans think that Metal was only good in the 80s, and that's definitely not true. In your opinion, what are the most important bands that have emerged in the world in the last 15 years, and could you choose a song from a new band that would prove that there are great new bands out there for us to listen to now?
SD: Yes, I think there are some fantastic bands that have emerged in the last ten years, some of my favorites are Opeth, Mastodon, and of course Lamb of God. These are bands that have proven themselves to be something consistent. Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of other bands that have emerged even more recently, but I like to draw attention to those bands that are at that point in their careers where they are already part of the history books of Heavy Metal. So if I had to choose one song, I would like to listen to the first track from the new Mastodon album, called “Black Tongue”.
W (NM): So, let me ask you something, what are your plans for the future?
SD: Well, we have two new projects. The first one we're doing is a documentary about Alice Cooper, which will focus on the beginning of his career up to his comeback in the 80s. So, the Alice Cooper documentary will be like a semi-animated archive of his career journey. And he's one of those legendary artists whose story has never been told; we feel he's such a compelling figure and has such a fascinating personal and professional career, it will be a great documentary. The other film we're making is generating some controversy. We're doing a modern history of Satan. So we're looking at Satan's influence in popular culture, from the 60s to the present, we're researching the rise of the use of devil imagery in film, music, and literature within contemporary culture. Even though in many parts of the world religion is declining in faith and even in spiritual forces, the image of Satan remains quite powerful and evocative. So, basically, the question of the film is why this is so and why Satan still matters.
W (DD): Sam, before we finish, I need to tell you something, because two years ago, when I finished watching your first film for the first time, I told myself that if I had the opportunity to talk to you, I would tell you this: the last five minutes of the film “Metal: A Headbanger's Journey,” when you say that we, Metal fans, celebrate what society denies, defend what society fears, and then the middle part of Master of Puppets begins, and all those statements about how important Metal is in people's lives, and at the end you say, “If you don't understand Metal, that's fine, we don't need you.” That was the most phenomenal thing anyone has ever created in terms of defending Heavy Metal. So, on behalf of all Brazilian headbangers, thank you very much.
SD: Well, thank you very much, I'm very happy and I even got goosebumps again when you talked about it.
W (NM): Me too, Sam, me too. You know, for us, who have been Metal fans for 28 years, it's really exciting to hear something so well-constructed as this, so thanks again.
SD: The pleasure is mine, and thank you for having me, man. I'm sorry this got so long, I'm glad we were able to make it happen.
W (NM): It was a pleasure, man. Can you leave one last message for all the Brazilian Metal fans?
SD: Yes, of course. This is Sam Dunn from Banger Films in Canada, and I just want to say to all the Brazilian Metal fans, thank you so much for supporting us in the films we've made and for being a part of several films we've done, like Global Metal and 666. We love Brazil and I can't wait to see you all soon.
W (NM): Alright, Sam, thank you again for your time. We're sorry we took up so much of your time, but I think we'll have two episodes dedicated to this interview. Whenever you need anything from Brazil, count on us, just give us a shout. We'll be ready to help you with anything, okay?
SD: Thank you so much, thank you, man.
W (DD): Thank you, Sam. Thank you very much.
SD: Take care.
W (DD): Bye, bye.
SD: Bye, bye.
