Rock has to be transgressive, rock has to come from the soul; it doesn't come from the flesh, it's not rational
Daniel Dystyler: Hey guys, starting another episode of Wikimetal and today we're experiencing a historic moment in this episode, not only because of the great guest who is here with us to host the show, but also because of the location we chose. Here I am, Daniel Dystyler, along with Rafael Masini and Nando Machado, each of us will explain a little bit about what I said. Nando Machado, the location; Rafael Masini, who our guest is.
Nando Machado : We're at a bar called Ugues, a bar that's famous for its coxinha, right? And the beer is always ice cold…
W (DD): It's a historic bar for Metal…
W (NM): Historic for Metal, for Brazilian Rock, a bar frequented by former members of Made in Brazil, Viper, Vodu…
W (DD): Coup d'état
W (NM): Coup d'état happened here a lot…
Rafael Masini : If you watch Cartão Verde and have listened to CBN for a long time, you'll know that our interviewee is the great Vitor Birner, known to us as Thumba, the great guitarist from Vodu, a heavy metal guy with hair almost down to his waist…
W (NM): Football journalist, sports columnist, and who today, for one day, will actually return to being the famous Thumba, with a "th".
W (DD): Because for a long time, he actually lived through that whole early era of Metal here in Brazil with us, first as a hardcore Iron Maiden fan, we'll talk a lot about that with him, and also later on the other side of the stage, right? Wielding the guitar of a historic band, Vodu, right? So, man, it's an honor to have you here on our show, on Wikimetal. Welcome to Wikimetal.
Vitor Birner : Yeah, I'll apologize first of all, because I know I was exhausted recording, but that's the life of a journalist, like a slave... I'm having fun here, I can't see this as a program, but as a reunion with old friends: bar, drinks... so, I don't know, let's take it easy and see where this conversation goes. Did you guys have a story idea? At least in the programs I do, I always think my goal is to destroy the story idea. Let's see if I can do that here too, because if I can, it would be cool.
W (DD): It's very likely you'll succeed.
W (NM): There are many stories to tell about Heavy Metal, Iron Maiden, and football, now that Vitor, the famous Thumba, is a famous commentator, right? He participates in Cartão Verde, writes for UOL. Now, tell me something, going back to the beginning of the 80s: how did you start listening to Heavy Metal, who were responsible for introducing you to
Heavy Metal?
VB: I had some older friends, I had an aunt who listened to rock, right? My mother liked rock, she didn't like heavy metal, but she liked rock, so since I was a boy, for example, I always really liked the Beatles, my mother listened to the Beatles… I got used to rock very early on. Then I had some older friends and one of them especially was Janes Jaco, he was English, and there was a series about Daniel Boone, I don't know if you remember…
W (NM): I remember.
VB: "Daniel Boone was a man"... His mother, Patricia Blair, who played Daniel Boone's wife in the series, his father was Brazilian...
W (DD): Look at that.
VB: Back then, people didn't travel much abroad, there was no globalization, no internet, nothing. And Jajaco would bring back some Heavy Metal records. My friends would say, 'I heard this, I heard that,' and I started listening, I started getting hooked… He was the one who introduced me to Iron Maiden. He brought Iron Maiden records, he brought Iron Maiden records to Brazil, he brought "Killers," I heard "Killers" for the first time, I already really liked AC/DC, Sabbath, but that's what truly changed my life.
W (DD): Iron Maiden hit hard, right?
VB: Yeah, the moment you picked up the record, the moment you saw the date, the moment you listened to the music, everything, everything, everything. I listened to it, I was crazy to leave school to keep listening to it, I listened, listened, listened, played soccer, listened, listened, listened. I didn't do anything else in life. But it was some older friends who already listened to the music, but they weren't freaks, so I identified with those guys, I started listening to the music and never stopped.
W (DD): That's cool. And taking advantage of the fact that you mentioned Iron Maiden and your history with Iron Maiden, right? I know you were one of the biggest collectors of Iron Maiden records, books, and clippings; I remember you had, like, I'll give you a number that's what I remember off the top of my head, I don't know if I'll give a completely wrong number, but that you had more than 200 Iron Maiden records and that you had more than seven or ten folders of Iron Maiden clippings. I wanted you to tell me a little bit if that's true, if my memory is very faulty or not, and if you still have that, how is that?
W (NM): Are you still one of the big Iron Maiden collectors?
VB: No, I'm not. This internet generation, the kids who have money, eBay, they buy records in bulk… It might seem like something an old man would do, but there's one thing… I still have my records and my folders…
W (DD): : And there are two hundred.
VB: I don't know, there must be some around here, I don't know, I don't know how many folders there are either, not ten, but there must be something around seven with articles between '81 and '86, 7, 8, you know, that's how it is…
W (DD): Iron Maiden's best era
VB: For example, the first Bruce Dickinson interview with Iron Maiden, I have that one and Cacophany... I have both, the one on the other side is the basic album, it was before he took off the mask.
W (DD): Look at this…
W (RM): This is the well-known backup, right?
W (NM): That was the backup in the 80s.
VB: I think there's something, not about buying things online, but something that I can't explain, but I'll try: when, for example, I saw Killers, I didn't understand it, I didn't have the information. Then I discovered Iron Maiden I and a little later they released Number here. I'll wait for you guys to come over later, Nando will remember that, I was going to wait to find out… Counting the seconds, listening to something, buying recordings from abroad, and I, for example, we would go to the store door, because we didn't know if it would arrive on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday… The whole time waiting for the record, that emotion, arriving, listening, discussing, talking. Because when you buy a package of things at once, a collection, you're buying something different even if materially they are the same. I don't know if everyone will agree with me, but in the end, in life, what we keep that's most important are the sensations.
W (DD): It's the memories, right?
VB: It's the emotions... of memories... it's the emotions.
W (DD): The fact that I spent Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday waiting for the disc has a very different weight to it.
VB: Also, when it came time to release the first EP, I kept trying, but I couldn't... damn, I'm going to get Pictures...
W (DD): Was it in the gallery?
VB: Rock?
W (NM): In the other gallery.
VB: Yes, I had three stores. I had Monte Rei…
W (DD): A completely different era
VB: Completely different. You used to wear long hair in the street, and people would stop and stare.
W (DD): Especially your hair, which is really waist-length, right?
VB: So, people thought certain things. I studied here at Mackenzie, which is huge… in college,
high school, middle school, I was the only guy with long hair in the whole school, there were I don't know how many thousands of students. So, everything was very different. If someone who doesn't understand this context wants to understand how things were… Being Heavy Metal meant being a rebel, right? You suffered a lot of prejudice. And the fights with the skinheads, the trouble in the streets you walked down, it was a very different time.
W (RM): E Thumba, you're talking a lot now as a listener, as a guy who enjoyed Heavy Metal. Talk a little about that transition from the guy who listened, the guy who started playing, the musician who fell in love with the guitar, to the point of even joining and playing in a band, which at the time was really cool, Vodu. Tell us a bit about that.
VB: Yeah, so, playing guitar was kind of a natural thing back then for anyone who liked music. I always liked music, I had played the flute, the flute, I played keyboard. Then when I went to buy a guitar, I even bought a guitar, a Golden… Nando might remember that, kind of Kerry King at the time. Then I remember I bought a pedal, one of those homemade ones, kind of distorted, dirty, crappy, with a really cheap little amplifier, but the point was to get together with friends and play.
W (NM): To make noise.
VB: To make noise. To get together with friends and make some music, because again, the story of the emotion was the event: you didn't get together thinking, 'oh, I'm going to buy a guitar and be a musician.' You bought a guitar, then you started playing, then you started to improve a little, but since everyone played very badly, you didn't need to play very well to get a place in a band. So, everything was very raw, very rotten, the sound was rotten, the recordings were analog, recording an eight-track demo was almost impossible because it was very expensive. But then a band appears, you play. Then suddenly, they called me to play at Vodu, I had played in two bands before, I had some records.
W (NM): Skull Crusher.
VB: …and Belial. Was Belial before or after Skull Crusher? I don't know.
W (NM): I think it was later.
VB: Yes, rather.
W (NM): Belial, who was responsible for the big hit 'Conan'.
VB: Was it at Belial's?
W (DD): Yes, I remember that.
W (NM): Yes, I think so.
VB: My memory is terrible.
W (NM): You were part of the early days of Heavy Metal in Brazil, what was it like being a headbanger in the eighties?
VB: I was never a headbanger, because I was never one to headbang, you know? So I was a fake headbanger, man.
W (NM): So, what was it like being a Metal fan in the eighties, what was the…
VB: It was a silly thing, right? Because it felt like you were fighting against the world: you fought against the radio, you fought against the clothes, you fought against the hair, against your parents… For example, my father, who isn't exactly a conservative guy, isn't a liberal guy, a conservative guy, there were times when he would come into my room at night to cut my hair, so I would stay up all night. It was tough. But then there are some personality things, because I ended up being contrarian in many things for the rest of my life, so I discovered that it was kind of natural. You felt… it was ridiculous, a teenage thing, but a good thing… Nowadays everyone wants to be very proper, everything perfect, and I think there's even a lack of constructive silliness in human beings. You know, that very proper, square thing… And we were kind of silly. But at the same time, we liked it, like, we'd get there and we'd identify with it, and we'd go to the place where we knew there was only that one, or that one place to listen to a certain kind of music, only there would people be like us, we were really like – I hate when people say it – but that's the term that would describe it, a tribe. We were against everything and everyone, without harming anyone, we'd get together, always to be able to listen to the music we liked, in the environment we liked… The world of Metal wasn't a predictable world, it was like… even though it was always very similar, it was like each time you got there, it was renewed…
W (DD): Energy
VB: It's energy, something new, something of your own, that made you enjoy life.
W (DD): That's great.
VB: And nowadays, I always say this, I miss it too, because I don't just like… that kind of silly, boring stuff, but things lack emotion.
W (DD): Since you mentioned comparing the past with today, right? Yes, I know that obviously everyone's musical tastes are diversifying, they're navigating various trends, and so on, but specifically regarding Metal, what you listen to today in Heavy Metal…
VB: Old things.
W (DD): Do you only listen to old music? Is there anything new that you listen to?
VB: Very melodic metal has become kind of corny, and the metal I listened to with my friends… I followed everything, I still have the albums, all foreign ones, like Kreator, Salting Cross, Sodom, Destruction… which I was addicted to… But even today? It's like giving a lollipop to a child, it's almost kind, and I think one of the things about Rock – Metal, whether you like it or not, is a subgenre of Rock – Rock has an obligation to shock, Rock is rebellious. Nando played in my building, I was talking on the phone, I was talking to him about something related to therapy, it has nothing to do with the show, but I'll bring this up here so you understand. There's a book, for example, by Nilton Bonder, called "The Immoral Soul," and he says the following: that our body respects, it follows patterns, schedules, and that the part that makes the world evolve is the soul, which is transgressive, which leads us to commit, in quotes, "errors." Do you understand? Rock has to be transgressive, Rock has to come from the soul; it doesn't come from the flesh, it's not rational, Metal can't be rational, and I think it's become too rational. So, it no longer touches… or I've become rational and old, but it no longer touches my soul, this new sound… I can hear snippets of songs, and I think they're cool, but I don't have the desire to get to know them, to listen to them…
W (DD): To deepen.
VB: It's because it doesn't click. It's good, but…
W (NM): Listening to Wikimetal, you'll discover bands...and you might even start to like them.
VB: I hope so. After Metal, I listened to many different kinds of music. Usually the more underground ones, from a time when the underground scene was made with more soul and less self-interest. Nowadays, many bands make metal with idealism.
"Rock in Rio didn't understand the impact that bringing Iron Maiden would have at that time."
W (RM): Let me tell you two things, so you can eat, with this very idea from the book, "The Immoral Soul," the transgressive thing, I read that book…
VB: Have you read this book?
W (RM): And it became a play – I'm a drama teacher.
VB: I didn't know. Yes, it turned out that way.
W (RM): It was a success, but it ran for years, a success.
VB: Do you like the book? Do you recommend it?
W (RM): I highly recommend it. And the play, it's not running anymore, but if it were, I would recommend it because it was a monologue, it was amazing. Since you mentioned music, and that you only listen to old stuff, Captain Fernando Machado told me that you've started playing guitar again…
VB: I'm back.
W (RM): What song is it that every time you pick up your guitar, you plug it in, and play it repeatedly, just to hear it more?
VB: We're going to listen to "For Whom The Bell Tolls" now, is that right?
W (RM): That's it.
VB: I'm announcing For Whom The Bell Tolls , a song where my guitar playing rougher than usual still allows me to play some riffs properly...it's a perfect song.
VB: It's easy and I can still play it, which I also listen to, I really like the quality.
W (NM): We're going to hear a song here on the show, at the opening, written by a friend of mine named André Goes, the song recorded by Vitor Birner, Seeds of Destruction . Going back now to For Whom The Bell Tolls , a great song, for me the great highlight of this song is the genius Cliff Burton, the brilliant Cliff Burton. You were never a big fan of Metallica, were you?
VB: I went. The six bands of my life are Sabbath… I'll list them in order: Iron Maiden first, Sabbath second…
W (DD): Metallica and Slayer…
VB: Metallica and Slayer, New Order and Sisters of Mercy, are the six bands I listened to the most, and that I still listen to quite a lot today.
W (DD): What was the highlight, the most exciting moment of your life in relation to music?
VB: There are two. Okay, you can send Rock in Rio 1.
W (NM): Iron Maiden show at Rock in Rio 1.
VB: We were talking earlier about the excitement of waiting for each album. Imagine, the show was World Slavery Tour, after years of listening, the bands hadn't come, I'd seen their shows here in São Paulo, but nothing comparable to something of this magnitude. After seeing Iron Maiden, it's like, imagine when you're about to eat your favorite food in life, with all due respect to Queen, who I think are amazing, it's hard to find something good after that, it just doesn't work, it ruins it. With all due respect to Queen fans, it ruins it. You can yell at me, but at that moment it would have ruined it. I love Queen, I love, love Queen, but at that moment, it would have ruined it. Rock in Rio didn't understand, at that time the production, Medina, and so on, the impact of bringing Iron Maiden back then. They had no idea, nobody had any idea. If you see the…
W (NM): They still have no idea to this day…
VB: You watch the TV Globo broadcast, you go to YouTube, and look, it's a show of mistakes, of lack of knowledge.
W (NM): No, Adrian Smith soloing and the guys showing off Dave Murray. One highlight from Rock in Rio, and the other?
VB: I went on a trip to the United States with my parents, I was walking down the street, long hair, metal shirt, nobody was metal, Iron Maiden shirt, then a guy stops me and says: “There’s a show” . I didn’t know. Iron Maiden, “Somewhere on Tour”. I said: “I’m going to the show” . And it was a show for a small crowd. A small crowd, eight thousand people, a gymnasium…
W (DD): Small show for Iron Maiden.
VB: The Iron Maiden show, at the time, was opening for Yngwie Malmsteen, back when Jeff Scott Soto was still singing.
W (DD): Wow. Man, Yngwie Malmsteen's opening, then seeing Iron Maiden afterwards is too much.
W (NM): And what about football? Transfer that emotion, what was the greatest moment of your life in football?
VB: I have a few, so I'll highlight two: Libertadores against Newell's Old Boys, 1-0, Morumbi.
W (NM): Were you there?
W (DD): It was 92, right?
VB: 92. I was there. Between 1980 and 2000 I didn't go to five games in the city, I must have gone to more than a thousand São Paulo games as a fan before working as a journalist, at the stadium. In 1985, the Paulista championship, I went to all the games, here in the interior… Brazilian championship, 1985, I must have gone to 80% of the away games.
W (DD): Wait a minute, you spoke too fast, let's just repeat: from 1980 to 2000, that's twenty years, you weren't working with football, you only missed five São Paulo games?
VB: From São Paulo. And I was still going to see games of the other teams.
W (NM): Oh, also via?
VB: Via. Pacaembu, Palestra was in the second division, in those knockout matches they had at Pacaembu with four teams to see who would get promoted… The second highlight, which is 2005, São Paulo and River Plate. I had already been there four times and São Paulo had never scored a goal, I think it took five or six games to score a goal against an Argentinian team in the Libertadores, it was in the seventh game, the Libertadores semi-final… River is… Mascherano, Lucho González in midfield…
W (DD): Great team.
VB: Yeah, they said it was a great team, but it was a mediocre team. (Laughs) And there was the return game, I had a battle at work to be able to go, I was scheduled, a lot of problems, I went to Argentina without a place to sleep, without a ticket, I don't get accredited when I go to the game to watch, I pay for the ticket, I don't get accredited, I don't use my journalist pass, I go to the stands, which is where football is happiest, much more so than in a radio booth, the radio station I work for is great, but being able to let out the emotion, to cheer…
W (DD): It's different.
VB: It's different. São Paulo won there, 3-2, and qualified. A hail of stones, two hours to leave the stadium, a war... leaving there and when I saw the fans singing as we arrived at the hotel, the players celebrating the qualification, and I was older, we're talking about 2005, I wasn't a kid like I used to be.
W (DD): Now, now.
The sporting event has to be entertaining while still providing information. You can joke around, but you can't create situations for ratings, empty controversies
VB: You managed to make me feel like I was 15 years old.
W (DD): We've started talking a lot more about soccer now, and we set aside the final part of the program to talk more about soccer itself. But, before talking about that, just to talk a little about this transition, do you remember when, or what caused the moment when you said: 'my path will be the path of journalism' and not the path of music?
VB: Oh no, that's very complicated. First: I had done a year of Law, a year of Literature, a year of Business Administration, and I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and I needed to do something with my life. I was working, but I needed to have a career, I believed in that. Which I don't really believe anymore, okay?
W (DD): At the time you…
VB: Yeah, so nowadays I'd think a little differently, but it's okay. Then I started thinking, I said: 'Wow, I talk about soccer…', or do you remember that, in school, my friends, everyone would stop to listen. I was always playing soccer, I went to the games, I knew everything behind the scenes… How can I make a living, earn money? By being a sports journalist. Since I didn't really like sports journalism at the time, because I was always a contrarian, I wanted to do things my way. Then, later, when I was in my fourth year of college, I had a girlfriend, and I wanted to get married, and I needed to earn money a little quickly to get married, and I met a guy, I started a company for automotive and cosmetics identification and labeling. In my fourth year of college, I said, "I don't want to be a journalist." I used to do community radio programs, and I wanted to make a living from community radio, but at that time there was all the fighting, and they shut down the community radio stations... I worked at a radio station called Rádio Cidadã, which was the biggest community radio station in São Paulo. Luci was the leader of the community radio movement, and I started there talking about soccer for three minutes. They liked it, I stayed for five, they liked it, I stayed for fifteen, they liked it, and I did a one-hour program. And at the time, there was a fight between Telê Santana and the São Paulo Football Federation, which wouldn't talk to anyone because Farah insisted that the São Paulo Championship was more important than the Libertadores Cup. Many people believed him because Rede Globo didn't broadcast the 1992 Libertadores Cup; it was OM TV, which is from Paraná, located here on channel 11 of Gazeta. With Galvão Bueno on OM TV.
W (DD): Galvão had left Globo, right?
VB: He left Globo and came back because in the final, São Paulo got 40-something points in the ratings against Newell's Old Boys, and Globo bought the Libertadores rights, brought Galvão back, and I think Galvão is grateful to São Paulo for that to this day, because he sometimes treats São Paulo very well.
W (DD): Differentiated.
VB: It's not the same treatment as Flamengo and Corinthians anymore, but it's still good treatment. So I started the company, but I hated it. So I persisted there for, I don't know, three or four years, I fought with Carolina, broke up with my fiancée, and then after a while I got another girlfriend, the best woman in my life, Camila, and Camila encouraged me to change my life. I started to get broke, I started to run out of money, and I was like that, and she said, "I don't care."
W (DD): Chat already glued together.
VB: That's when I started looking for things in journalism and then…
W (NM): Why the hell didn't you marry Camila?
VB: Because she didn't want to.
W (RM): Good. Yes, Thumba, in journalism, at least I've read a lot about it, you consider Juca Kfouri a great master, a great teacher.
VB: Uhum.
W (RM): So, speaking of music, who is this great master, this great guitarist, this great teacher?
VB: I have my favorites, I don't have a master. I've never had a master.
W (RM): Name your favorites.
W (NM): But is Juca really your great master?
VB: Yes. I'm very grateful to Juca, especially because Juca doesn't really have that... I don't really like that master-disciple thing.
W (NM): Of ego, nothing? Or does it have any?
VB: No, it does. But it does in a constructive way, not in a way that puts other people down, you know?
W (NM): He needs to understand his own importance and…
VB: I think he doesn't have much patience for
certain things anymore because of his age. Actually, it has nothing to do with it, but I'm going to send a hug, I don't know if you'll understand, you talked about this kind of subject and don't cut it off, Chiquinho Abadá. Chiquinho Abadá, you can continue, he's going to kill me when he hears this.
W (DD): We won't cut it, we'll leave it.
VB: I'll explain later.
W (DD): Go for it, Nando.
VB: So, just going back. What's the difference between Juca and other journalists, and I think it's huge. One detail: Juca doesn't understand much about football. He's not bad, but he's not a great expert either. He can't explain a game tactically, which is a technical thing—many people like it, others don't—but when it comes to something related to journalism, which is investigative work, the essence… he knows a politician's career, what they've done in life, their position at each crucial moment, you know? A situation that could change or not change the sport, or society. In the critical aspect, which is the most difficult and noble part of journalism, his vision is much longer than the average of my colleagues, and even longer than mine. So, Juca is awesome, Juca is awesome. My favorite journalist isn't Juca, it's Mauro Cezar Pereira from ESPN Brazil, because he has all the knowledge, the vision of grassroots football, which I also like – football where the fans don't just sit in the stands, where they stand and sing; football, which is a popular sport, has to have space for the people in the stadium; football where the player has to respect the shirt, where the fans don't fawn over him, a guy has to do a lot for a club to become an idol, a lot, a lot, it's for a select few. This entertainment thing that I also don't like very much, I think sporting events have to entertain, but entertain within the context of information. You can joke around, you can do various things, it's open, but you can't create situations for the audience, empty controversies, because the way sports journalism is done today, there's a lot I don't watch, especially on broadcast TV, because I don't like it. Because, you come and say one thing… but people keep watching, this crap keeps making money.
W (RM): You have the right to change the newspaper, right?
VB: It's the democracy of…
W (DD): But it's just to go back to the music, like that, that is…
VB: From the great guitarist.
W (DD): No, either the great master, or the great guitarist, someone who inspired.
VB: Ah, very simple, like, Dave Murray, Tony Iommi, Randy Rhoads… then, obviously, Kerry King, Jeff Hanneman, because of the feel, the rhythm, the picking, the muting… very basic, there's not much…
W (NM): Secret.
VB: There's not much of a secret.
W (DD): Very good, and going back to that question…
VB: Dave Murray is my favorite…
W (NM): Dave Murray?
VB: Dave Murray is my favorite, far from being the best, just my favorite.
W (NM): There's a classic question on Wikimetal that we asked all the interviewees, and one hundred percent of the interviewees answered this question. Imagine you're listening to music randomly, either on your iPod, or on the radio, or in your car stereo, whatever, what's that song that suddenly makes you lose control?
W (DD): That you can't avoid.
W (NM): You can't help but start nodding your head, so we can hear it now on Wikimetal?
VB: Okay, can I request a version?
W (NM): The version you want…
VB: Killers, Bruce Dickinson, audition tape.
W (NM): Coming back now from Killers, audition tape, with Bruce Dickinson singing Iron Maiden songs for the first time.
W (DD): Just to explain, what is an audition tape?
VB: It's Bruce Dickinson's audition to join Iron Maiden.
W (DD): Bruce Dickinson's audition for Iron Maiden.
VB: In the studio.
Iron Maiden doesn't have fans, Maiden has supporters. Anyone who likes Iron Maiden will follow them whether things are going well or bad
W (NM): As soon as Paul Di'Anno left, singing, and then we clearly see why he got the job and joined Iron Maiden.
W (DD): Vitor, here's the thing: we have a segment on Wikimetal where we kind of talk to our Wikibrothers and Wikisisters, our listeners, right? Do you want to call that segment now?
VB: You listening to Wikimetal, Wikibrother, now it's time for 'Heavy Talk'.
W (DD): Well, coming back from this 'Heavy Talk', Vitor, we know that Brazil, in the coming years, will experience a phase of economic growth, like perhaps, I don't know, our generation has never had the chance to experience, to witness. And with that, and with the crises that have been happening in the more developed markets, we have a real chance of one day seeing the Brazilian football market as strong as, or even stronger than, Italy, Spain, England, with strong clubs, thus retaining the main players from here, an almost unbeatable national team, great stadiums, is that possible?
VB: Impossible.
W (DD): What do you need?
VB: Ah, everything needs to change, because the football executives here are very interested in their own affairs, the oversight of football business...
W (DD): But didn't that happen in Italy too?
VB: In Italy, a little bit, but for example, there are teams there that get relegated…
W (NM): England itself, right?
W (DD): But here we had Corinthians, Grêmio, Atlético Mineiro, everyone went through the second division,
too.
VB: Inside the field.
W (DD): Inside the field.
VB: There, because of a lottery scandal, a corruption case, a case of buying games…
W (DD): And here, would there be reason to relegate teams for that reason as well?
VB: Ah, I think a lot, a lot, well, we can't say for sure what happens, but there are some very strange things in football, and I'm not even talking about results, about club management. You can't have astronomical debts and nothing will happen; the club can just be excluded from competitions, suffer some sanctions. Not here, here there aren't even direct elections for president in many clubs. They need to divide the administration of football, professionalize football, create a category of football fan members who vote for the president, you know, have a more direct influence on decisions and football results. But nobody is interested in doing that here, because from the moment you transform, for example, the club into a company, the members become financially responsible for it, but the manager leaves behind a huge debt…
W (DD): It belongs to the partners.
VB: It belongs to the partners. An entity that will receive a veneer from the government later, a historical entity, nowadays centuries old, that has importance in the history of the country, that cannot end, that generates employment – closing the door of Ugue's – that generates employment, that I don't know what, the taxes are much lower, depending on the location there is exemption from property tax…
W (RM): Thumba, if you could create a video clip right now, put together a video clip, think about it, which player would show the plays and goals in the video clip, and what song would be in the background?
VB: Wow, that's a tough question, man.
W (NM): Wikimetal is just asking difficult questions.
VB: Dude, the music…
W (NM): If you want it easy, go have dinner at 'Bem, Amigos'.
W (DD): This is a grilling session.
VB: Raí is another player I hold in very high regard, Serginho Chulapa, my father says I'm a São Paulo fan because of him, Chicão, Forlán are my favorites, I don't know, Rogério, Dario…
W (DD): Bald.
VB: Careca, for God's sake. Now, if we were to choose just one championship, or one player, I'd be torn between Careca and Raí. But I'd go with Raí.
W (RM): Raí and music?
VB: "Disposable heroes".
W (RM): Good.
VB: Heavier. A heavier rock sound in the background.
W (NM): Cool. And tell me something, what's the connection between Heavy Metal and football?
VB: Almost no relation.
W (DD): No relation?
VB: Almost none, because the football crowd here is very much into samba, right? So I'm going to give an answer related to Iron Maiden. Iron Maiden brings the football atmosphere to all their shows, because Iron Maiden doesn't have fans, Maiden has supporters, it's something else entirely.
W (DD): Go there and cheer that the show goes well.
VB: Yeah, because a guy who likes Iron Maiden will follow him whether they're good or bad.
W (DD): It will push the band.
VB: He's going to push the band.
W (NM): Even with Blaze Bayley.
VB: Even that crappy Blaze Bayley has fans. And Iron Maiden has a flag, and I think that somehow… translates to the football stadium for Iron Maiden fans. And also the image thing, now if you think about, for example, Manowar, Yngwie Malmsteen, Slayer themselves, Metallica in football… You're going to criticize me, I like Rammstein, and I used to think that teams should enter the field with "Ich Will." With the entrances, flags.
W (NM): We could listen to some Rammstein music.
VB: Rammstein tells you whatever you want to imagine a team taking the field with it, especially as a good option.
W (DD): You keep changing things on your blog, and it's worth noting that it's blogdobirner.virgula.uol.com.br.
VB: Is that it? That's it.
W (DD): That's it.
VB: I don't know exactly off the top of my head.
W (DD): You're always posting references to Heavy Metal, occasionally posting some references to Heavy Metal, and so on. And recently you posted something that I thought was really cool, which was a Metal version of that traditional song.
VB: From XV de Piracicaba.
W (DD): Exactly. That's right, the friendly XV fans.
VB: Fifteen, fifteen. (Laughter)
W (DD): He always sings, but I thought it was really cool that in that song they embrace their country roots, you know? Being from Piracicaba, and I wanted to know, shall we listen to a little bit of that song now?
VB: Come on, please. Too much.
VB: It has to do with Piracicaba, which the people themselves nickname the city 'Pira', and you understand very well why the city is 'Pira', because it's a city of crazy people, right? With all due respect to the decent people and everything else in Piracicaba, but Piracicaba is a city of madmen.
W (RM): Thumba, you already presented Cartão Verde alongside the great Sócrates. A smart guy, a creative guy…
W (NM): A truly unique guy, right? Players, like… regardless of which team you support, everyone's a fan, I'm a fan of Sócrates.
VB: He's a hell of a guy.
W (RM): Yes, yes, from all the teams.
W (DD): Sensational.
W (RM): He has a strong personality, so intelligent. My question is: what musician compares to the brilliant Sócrates? Steve Harris…
VB: No, no, those are technical, precise, you have to have something more indolent, something more inspired and less rational. Syd Barrett.
W (NM): Syd Barrett. An misunderstood genius.
VB: Misunderstood by you, but to me he's very well understood and I've loved him for a long time. Since the Voodoo era. Pay attention, pay attention. Pink Floyd started and ended after 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn', 'A Saucerful of Secrets' is still Pink Floyd, after it became one, with all due respect to Pink Floyd addicts… It has good moments but it's not the same.
W (NM): I disagree.
VB: It has good moments, but…
W (NM): Even The Wall?
VB: No, what, The Wall is…
W (NM): Dark Side of the Moon.
VB: The Wall is to Pink Floyd what Fear of the Dark is to Iron Maiden, so you understand.
W (NM): The style.
VB: Speak.
W (DD): Since we're talking about football, you posted a really cool comment about the Brazilian national team, about how its connection with the fans had plummeted.
VB: He almost died.
W (DD): For you, was the 1982 team the best Brazilian national team you've ever seen play?
VB: Easy peasy, it's not even fun.
W (DD): If you had to choose…
VB: And I'm a guy who values results, I'm pragmatic.
W (DD): Even so, they didn't win, but... Damn, and I agree with you, for me it's the best team I've ever seen too. Now, the question I wanted to ask is: which Iron Maiden song compares to the 1982 team?
VB: Hallowed Be Thy Name, in the studio.
VB: I almost put Phantom of the Opera.
W (NM): We're coming to the end of another episode of Wikimetal, I'd like to express my immense gratitude to Vitor Birner for being here…
W (RM): Our Thumba.
W (NM): Our beloved Thumba with th…
VB: It had to be a Corinthians fan to keep bringing that up all the time, right? Yeah… it had to be, didn't it?
W (DD): All the time he…
VB: Yeah, yeah, it was just him.
W (NM): I wanted to express my immense gratitude for Vitor Ernesto Birner's presence and I would like you to let people know where they can find you.
VB: Well, I'm the one who should thank you for participating, I had a lot of fun, it was really great, pure fun. People can find me on my blog, blogdobirner.virgula.uol.com.br, I write for Lance on Saturdays, in a column on page 4, and during the week I give some opinions and also do a segment with Juca Kfouri on UOL, from 3 to 4 pm, UOL TV on Mondays, it's available on the website afterwards, and I also work on Cartão Verde, which is live from 10 to 11 pm on TV Cultura, for those who can't watch it, it takes a little while to upload, but later the full program is also available on the television's website.
W (NM): A great presence, a great friend for many years, an honor for us to have Vitor Birner on our blog.
VB: What's that?
W (NM): And we'll keep listening to Iron Maiden forever.
VB: And let's go, because the staff…
W (NM): Ugue's closed.
VB: …the guys want to sleep. Oh, the silence all around.
W (DD): Chico wants to sleep.
W (NM): You said it, Chico.
Chico : He spoke.
