The band DarWin , led by guitarist of the same name and drummer Simon Phillips (who has collaborated with names like Judas Priest , Toto , The Who , Jeff Beck and many others), has just released the album Distorted Mirror , along with a series of conceptual music videos and live performances on their YouTube channel .
In an interview with Wikimetal , drummer Simon Phillips discusses the recording process of the album, the use of artificial intelligence in music today, the current state of the progressive rock scene, and his Brazilian hero. Check it out:
Simon talks about his analog approach and artificial intelligence in music.
Wikimetal : DarWin just released a new album, “Distorted Mirror.” This album has a futuristic theme focused on artificial intelligence, and I saw in some of your interviews that the production was intentionally analog and vintage. Why did you choose such an “old school” sound approach for such a modern subject?
Simon Philips : It's the only approach I know (laughs). I've been doing audio engineering on records since 1983. So, I grew up with tape recorders, consoles, and totally analog equipment, outboard . Plus, I've been playing records since 1972. So, I was constantly in and out of studios from a very young age. I had the opportunity to work with many of those engineers from that era. And that's what my ears are used to. So, when it comes to sound engineering, you simply go for what you want to hear. That's basically it. How you get there depends on you and the techniques you've learned. But that's how I get the sound, because I want it to sound a certain way. That's how they are. I like it to be rich. I like it to be warm, with a lot of headroom , using very, very good equipment.
WM: And this album, as I said, has this theme focused on AI. You, as a musician who has been in the industry for so many decades, have witnessed the technological changes. What is your personal opinion on AI in music? Do you see it as a threat or just another tool?
SP : I see… well, it could be a threat. It really depends on the type of music, the musical style. It's very good at creating a facsimile of modern pop music, because that's probably what most people use it for. When it comes to anything progressive, jazz… it's terrible, absolutely useless. I experimented with it and it's garbage. And it's the same when it writes too. Many people are using ChatGPT to write things. And yet, you always realize when you read: “this didn't… no, someone didn't write this. This was generated.” And you have to review and correct everything.
So, in terms of threat, I don't see it that much, but the public is getting used to listening to music in a different way. Listen to pop music. They wouldn't understand 60s pop music at all. Some young people love [old music] and don't know what's happening today. But most of today's pop music… I mean, I never listen to it. For me, I'm not even going to waste my time. Why? You know, I want deep music, real music played by real musicians, created by real people, you know? And that's what this album is about. It's all played for real, musicians who have studied their instruments for years and, hopefully, recorded in the best way I can.
The Simon Phillips Method: Instinct Over Planning
WM: This album has a track called “Man vs Machine,” which has two distinct music videos, a performance cut and a concept version, “Dawn of the Robots.” Why did this particular song receive two visual treatments?
SP : Ah, well, that's up to DarWin. DarWin makes those decisions. We did some [performance videos], not all of them. We can't do all of that. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of filming, a lot of editing. And from my point of view, it's a lot of relearning the music, something I'm not very good at. I always play everything differently. So, we had to choose… I think we did three. I think we did “Loophole”, “Man vs Machine” and maybe “Cry a River”. I don't remember now. Oh, we did “Rising Distortion” too. But that's… that's DarWin's concept. He's the one who says: “Let's do this for this song. Let's do this… Let's do that… Let's make two videos…” So I leave it to him. I already have enough to do (laughs).
WM: There's another track on this album called "33rd Century Man." Who is the "33rd Century Man" within the distorted universe you've created?
SP : Ah, well, that's up to you to decide (laughs). You know, a lot of the concepts and lyrics… well, lyrically, it comes from both Matt [Bissonette] and DarWin. I don't get involved. I can't. I'm not a lyricist. I let them do it. What I do is, when I put it all together, when I see the lyrics and, more importantly, hear them, then I'll know: “ah, we need to change this line. This isn't working very well,” you know, or “I'm not so sure about this line.” That's when I get involved. But mostly it's DarWin and Matt together creating the lyrics. And they come up with these concepts. And yeah, it's like… why is anything called anything, you know? Why do we call [something] “river”? Why? You know, it's the same with “33rd Century Man.”
WM: For you, as a drummer, how do you approach the narrative and construction of the songs?
SP : Actually, I don't know. I mean, I play the music. I'm an instinctive musician. I don't plan much. I never have. And when I'm putting these songs together here in this room, I'm making MIDI tracks. A lot of the time I don't play drums. Sometimes I use programmed drums. Sometimes I might go there [to the kit] and just play to make sure the tempo is right or that everything sounds good. But most of the time I don't play until we actually get into the studio. And it's instinct. It's really just instinct. And that comes from playing on so many records over so many years. That's really where it comes from.
Simon talks about the album's production and the current state of progressive rock.
WM: In a modern progressive rock project like DarWin, with layers of guitars and keyboards, how do you struggle to keep the music dynamic and avoid the "loudness war" or excessive compression?
SP : Well, again, you know, I was raised in the days when our standards were much, much lower. We were making records for vinyl. We also used tape. So, we had very strict limits that we had to adhere to. Yes, [records] are much “louder” than they used to be. But I really don't like the sound of heavily compressed music. It's tiring to listen to. You listen to two tracks and I already want to turn it off. So, my philosophy has always been to try to get as “hi-fi” (high fidelity) an approach as possible, even if the sounds are distorted or heavy guitars. I mean, we're doing… often I do three or four guitar tracks of DarWin playing the same thing. And then, in the mix, I can treat them a little differently. When I record, I do a guitar track and then I do a double. Then I change the amp, which would go through a different amp and speaker combination, and I double them.
So, when I'm mixing, I have a lot to choose from. Often I also have Jesse Siebenberg doubling [the guitars] with a different sound. It really depends on what's happening in the mix. If I feel there's not enough "body" there, or not enough warmth, then we need a different sound. And each guitarist has a particular sound. DarWin has his sound, and Jesse has a more traditional rock sound, as opposed to a heavy metal sound. But ultimately, I'm very careful with compression. I don't like to over-compress and I always leave plenty of headroom for the mastering engineer. He's the guy who's going to make the final move in terms of mastering.
And often, when I use mastering engineers, the first pass is usually very loud. It's very compressed, which makes it difficult to listen to. I don't care about radio play. But this isn't the right kind of music, it's not the kind of music that would be played on the radio. This is for listening at home, whether on a CD or vinyl, on a good system. So, I want to make it as pleasant to listen to as possible. [Whether on] headphones or pods . For me, that's very important. The more compressed, the more distorted, the louder… it's very tiring for a human to listen to. That's just a fact. So, I always try to give myself plenty of headroom , while still making it sound effective and powerful, but with dynamics.
WM: You've played with rock icons like Jeff Beck, The Who, Toto, and many fusion giants. How does that experience influence your production and drumming choices in a modern project like DarWin?
SP : It's simply... I learned from everyone I played with. It's a wonderful experience, especially in the early '70s, mid-'70s, late '70s, early '80s. I mean, I was learning all the time, you know, and learning from the greatest musicians. So, all that experience I can put into any project.
Whether it's a straightforward rock/pop project, a more progressive one, a fusion project, even folk or classical, I can draw from all these experiences, from all the records I've played on, and approach a song in a certain way. That's just… that's just experience.
WM: And how do you see the progressive rock scene today?
SP: There are so many great bands out there. I participate in an event called “Cruise to the Edge,” which is a progressive rock cruise, and there are some great bands there. Life Science is a wonderful band, I've even played with them. They're amazing. Marillion , absolutely fantastic. I love their music. There are so many, so many great ones… there's a lot of good music out there, no matter what people say. I'm a big fan of Queensryche . Yes, I think they're fantastic. And yes, there's a lot of good music.
WM: Were there any tracks that were challenging to produce or mix on “Distorted Mirror”? And if so, what made them so difficult?
SP : Hmm, that's a good question. Hmm, I don't know. I mean, they all have, they all have their elements of difficulty. I'd say doing anything is difficult. I mean, it's never easy. But, on the other hand, each track fits together in a certain way, especially when mixing.
At first, it's kind of… it's a little unfocused. You're just getting the sounds from each instrument. You're fitting them together. And then, often, sometimes you even have to start over. But at least you already have your sounds. Sometimes you just need to rebalance.
And then, on the second rebalancing, sometimes, “oh, this is sounding better. This fits better now.” You know, I don’t know. Somehow, it works itself out. Sometimes there’s a mix I’m still not happy with and I can’t pinpoint the problem. And that’s where another pair of ears really helps.
And that's why, you know, DarWin and I are the producers. I'm mixing alone, but I send the mix to him, and then he listens to it. And he can point out something very simple, just something I wasn't hearing.
He says, “You know, what’s happening with those… remember those guitars we had? Yeah, they were there.” I say, “Yeah.” “Well, maybe change the balance between the guitars.” You know, “Oh, okay, that’s interesting.” And often, everything that’s recorded doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be in the mix.
That's the other thing. It's like, "we did this" or "this sounded great," but now they're not really doing much for the mix. Take them out. It doesn't need to be there just because it was recorded. You know, there are a lot of things. It's decision-making. But it really helps to have a second pair of ears to help you get a different perspective on the mix.
The Brazilian hero by Simon Phillips
WM: Simon, we're nearing the end of this interview. But before we finish, do you have a special message for Brazilian fans? Maybe DarWin will come here? Because, according to Spotify, São Paulo is the city that listens to DarWin the most. Are there any plans?
SP : Well, São Paulo is a great city, of course. One of my heroes comes from São Paulo. Ayrton Senna. I'm a big racing fan and a big fan of Ayrton. I got to meet him once, which was great. And I saw him race a few times. And I've visited his grave a few times, every time I'm in São Paulo. So, yes, we would love to go to Brazil to play. I hope we can do that.
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